Doug and Deborah, Corporate Roleplay Actors, on Building Teams

Colin Hunter 0:07

Hi, folks, and welcome to another episode of the leadership tales podcast. Joined today by two characters, that's all I can describe among characters in the most positive sense of the word. Doug Shapiro, Deborah Tranelli. Doug and Deborah have been involved with working as actors in the US for a number of years now. And the reason we've got them on today firstly is to talk about the role of actors in our emotional work, where we get clients to experience the power of a scenario where they get to meet the actors who are in character, and they get a chance to with a remote-controlled play around with that conversation, different styles, different approaches. And Doug and Deborah are just brilliant in terms of bringing that to life and working in there. So there's the power of that. But also, there's the power these two as individuals and what they do is they give, and Doug Shapiro is probably the person my life has given me the most in terms of, he's always giving to other people, inviting other actors into work with us as potential squared. He's always recommending people to talk to, but he's just in the moment when he is in a space with you. It's all about you. And that that real power that he has, to make you feel special, is important. And Deborah, Deborah is just one of these people who has taken our art to a high level, she has been involved in TV, theatre, and all the way through, she does it with a grace and an intellect that is very, very strong. And therefore, I couldn't be happier to get them to share their story. And as they pass on the baton to some of the other people coming into our organization to work as actors. I'm always reminded of the first time I met Doug and Deborah for a number of reasons, and one of these was that we went eventually went to do some rehearsals and assessment centers for actors in a rehearsal studio, and in that rehearsal studio, we were in this room, and we were putting the actors through their paces. So we could test whether they were able to remove what we would call the lovey out of them and be able to be real and be credible as individuals in organizations to play their role. But every time you opened that door, down the corridor, or something else was going on, somebody was practicing musical instruments in the corridor, or there was a rehearsal. And I remember as I opened one of the doors one time off to see the wizard was being sung with great gusto next door. And, you know, there's the singing away, and I just, I got a sense of what it is like to immerse yourself in the acting world, the toughness of that, that role. And therefore, to get these amazing characters to come work with us to share their expertise to create the emotions that have created the stories where people have said the most empowering, powerful thing they had of the development for us was, was the use of the actors and how they, they develop their conversational skills or feedback skills at that moment. So hope you enjoy it, Doug and Deborah; looking forward to getting your feedback.

Colin Hunter 3:21

Delighted, and if you could see what I can see at the moment, you'd be delighted to welcome these two characters as well. I've gotten the other side. So Doug and Deborah,

Doug Shapiro 3:29

I love you

Deborah Tranelli 3:30

Thank you - I love you too.

Colin Hunter 3:34

We're all in love with each other. It's great. I love it. I love it. I'm delighted to have two good friends but also two people who are have been part of the journey of potential squared; working with us as actors bring to life a lot of the immersion for our participants as we've gone through it, but I don't know what I'm going to get when I get these two people onto anything, whether it's work or onto a podcast. So we are taking a journey into the unknown today. The only thing I know is that Doug normally has Chico, a parrot, on his shoulder. Today he doesn't, so we don't have Chico for those who listen.

Doug Shapiro 4:12

But Deborah is currently sitting on my shoulder.

Deborah Tranelli 4:15

I am currently on his shoulder

Doug Shapiro 4:16

There's a devil on my shoulder.

Colin Hunter 4:18

And it could be musical as well today, folks, so let's just see where we go.

Deborah Tranelli 4:22

You never know.

Colin Hunter 4:23

You never know. Doug and Deborah, I'd love you to introduce yourself to our audience to our listeners about you and a bit of the background, and then we can go into more serious, no joking aside, we can go into deeper conversation. Why don't you kick yourself, Doug?

Doug Shapiro 4:38

Sure. I'll give you some bullet points that would ever fascinate you. You could talk about more later. I'm a music theatre voiceover guy, and also, thanks to Colin, and now it's grown, I'm a business role player and standardized patient. So I work with five different business roleplay companies and five different medical institutions. Just sort of helping people to be able to use in person what they've learned from their trainer and get to try it out as a playground, and I also am a proud husband and parrot and cat father.

Colin Hunter 5:14

A Parrot and cat father and tell me where do you live, Doug? Where's give the listeners an idea of where your abode is? Yeah.

Doug Shapiro 5:22

Oh, sure. I live in. I live in New York City in the Kips Bay neighborhood of Manhattan. And I was born and raised in Long Island, which, if I'm tired, you'll be able to hear a little bit more. My voice

Colin Hunter 5:32

Uh, it's cool. And we're going to get into a couple of the other bits that you do in there because I was fascinated to go with

Doug Shapiro 5:39

Pal gets right in there.

Colin Hunter 5:41

Yeah, let's go off there. No. Well, let Deborah because Deborah could not get a word in edgewise if we go there for a while. So Deborah, introduce yourself to the folks listening.

Deborah Tranelli 5:51

I am indeed Deborah Tranelli.

Colin Hunter 5:54

The Deborah Tranelli. The

Deborah Tranelli 5:56

Indeed, um, I really have been amazingly blessed with a long, long, long career as a singer and actor, voice-over talent, and audiobook reader. I have done master classes with actors, young actors. I just enjoy both sides of things. I even mentor; I think when I'm doing shows, I've reached the age now where young people sit around me and say, Tell me about the early days of theatre with Sarah Bernhardt. I have had a career that's been all over the place, starting in theatre, and then ended up a long time on a television series you might be familiar with within the U.K, Dallas, and came back to New York in the mid-90s. And really focused on my theatre career, but I'm also a concert artist singer who requires a CD that's just been re-released.

Doug Shapiro 6:49

CD. A lot of live-in available on iTunes.

Deborah Tranelli 6:53

Yeah.

Colin Hunter 6:53

And you're only 25 as well, definitely. Come on.

Deborah Tranelli 6:57

Yeah, I'm old. I'm 35. Now, okay. Okay. I kept it 35. I had a full life. Number one in my life is my family, and especially my new great-nephew, Jackson Rainey, who's almost a year old. So that's kind of the light in the life of the COVID, the year of COVID. So Doug is, as we can talk about later, is responsible for my becoming involved in the business roleplay world, which I have been doing now for almost seven years and loved every minute of it.

Doug Shapiro 7:28

Is it seven years?

Deborah Tranelli 7:29

Almost, Six and a half, maybe.

Colin Hunter 7:27

Yeah. And it's interesting because Doug introduces everybody to everybody. I mean, that is your role, Doug. You're a networker extraordinary. Tell me a bit of bounce going back into that because I'd love to dig in Deborah to the thing in the mentoring piece because that's going to be a big part of what you do. But also you do that, Doug, as well, because you've been a coach to actors. You've got a net strong network, and you're responsible for many careers, is my understanding.

Doug Shapiro 7:59

I kind of love that that's sort of like the Mark I want to make in the world. I mean, I've been very fortunate that whenever I recommend Deborah Tranelli for a job, she always gets hired again and again. So actually, the voiceover gig that I'm running to after this, they now use Deborah Gianelli regularly working with you working with we met doing a new musical, so she's always my first recommendation when they need someone who's 35, we’ll say

Colin Hunter 8:30

you look amazing, and 35 is great. Yeah.

Doug Shapiro 8:34

I think the air quotes were used for 35, Just like making your hair tousled over the overseas.

Deborah Tranelli

You know what? I feel 35. Yeah. No matter how many years are on top of that.

Doug Shapiro 8:46

She does feel 35.

Colin Hunter 8:47

And Doug is, for those listening, Doug is now feeling Deborah, and she does feel 35. Okay, let's get

Deborah Tranelli 8:54

That’s my shoulder, just my shoulder.

Colin Hunter 8:57

Just a shoulder, yeah, it's a clean show, folks. Let's keep it clean.

Doug Shapiro 9:01

Mentorship piece, there's a when I was an intern at the Shakespearean Theatre of Maine, there was a man named Jerry kissel, who is the man, father, mentor, actor I'm always striving to be, and he was the one that would take all the intern, and you know, busy, busy man doing you know playing leads and Shakespeare, but he would take all the interns aside and say, Okay, do you know how to do facial hair pieces done? No, we don't; we're interns, and he was great, and you get the crepe hair and the iron and shows how to blend all the hairpieces. I'm making amazing motions. My hands right now are bad.

Colin Hunter 9:38

Yeah, he's got no hairpieces in his hand folks

Doug Shapiro 9:42

Which shows how to combine them, iron them use the spirit glue, spirit gum, and everything, and make the pieces. Do you know how to do old-age makeup? No, we don't. We're interns. He would grab the oldest member of the company, sit them down, Shine a flashlight over their head and show us how to do the shading and everything like that. Also, when through a tough time while he was there, which I won't go into more because that's his business. But the way he handled himself left it outside of the rehearsal room and came in and just channeled it into what he was doing on the stage and was a masterclass. So it's that type of example, that sort of mentorship that no matter what company I'm in now, I make, like, you know, if my expertise is the business side of theatre, I always, always for the crew, and whatever cast wants to do a seminar on the business of acting, the business of theatre to get back in that way if you're good at something else, you teach boys, you know what, whatever that is. But that's crucial to me.

Colin Hunter: 10:40

And that Pay It Forward principle is massive for you in terms of either whether it's reading people's books, and delighted that you read my book, but the mentorship is, is a key part. And it's paying it forward. And particularly over the last 18 months with COVID. The acting community has been massively hit through that. So it's useful just to say what else have you been doing over those that year in terms of what you do to support and come both of you, in terms of getting that through that. Yeah.

Doug Shapiro: 11:09

Sure. The, well, as far as for the actress on COVID Hit, and suddenly my whole career had to be done from my basement. And so the actress fund turned around a grant so quickly for me so that I could buy the ring light and the microphone and everything that went with it. We'll talk about technology later, put a pin in that but so what I've done in return is read the work of my author friends.

Deborah Tranelli: 11:37

like Colin,

Doug Shapiro: 11:38

with Chico, my parrot, on my shoulder over Facebook Live to raise money for the Actors Fund. So it holds up my friends who are writing books that raise money for the Actors Fund, and also the little bit of like, by the way, I'm an audiobook narrator, people.

Colin Hunter: 11:54

You are touting for business as well. But yeah, somehow, you know.

Doug Shapiro: 11:56

A little bit, but without saying, Hi, I'm an audiobook narrator please hire me. And by the way, no, it's about the Actors Fund is about holding on to my author friends that work out a bit; I won't be angry.

Colin Hunter: 12:07

No, it's brilliant. Brilliant. Yeah. And Deborah, how's this 18 months be for you? I mean, 18 months, I keep adding to it; it seems to be going on and on.

Deborah Tranelli: 12:14

I know it does. It's kind of timeless, almost. It's just, well, it for me. Other things were happening in my life that sort of took precedence. I was able to do multiple, you know, play readings and musical readings. And I participated in a benefit to performances, I want to say or appearances, and a benefit of people who were either first responders or healthcare workers who were also singers and dancers, and put together for the Actors Fund as well. So that was kind of fun to participate as a voiceover artist. And for the holiday one, I actually did a reading of the night before Christmas, oh, really, really wonderful to share and be able to, with this community, support my own community, which was very touching many things happening, having an elderly parent who was very isolated, the focus of my life really became making sure that my mother was, you know, visited and taken care of, because she is it lives independently, she lives alone. And so I was taking care of her a lot. So that was a big focus of mine. And the rest of the world kind of came around it. I was able to continue to do some voiceover work. And actually doing long-distance doing voice work on the film in Los Angeles, you know, I was all closeted in my master bedroom, right? So I have a microphone set up there. And I literally sat in there with my computer on my lap, my laptop on my lap with my recording device by a zoom recording device, and was able to be creative, and it was important to maintain creativity. I have a couple of friends who are considering doing some TED Talks. So I was working with one of them and mentoring them on that topic. He was actually he no longer is, but he was an emergency room nurse here in Bellevue Hospital, in the heat of the first outbreak is now living down full time in Florida, still evolving healthcare, but kind of going through that and the effect that had on his life and helping him guide through that and how he wants to speak about that. He was sort of the driving force behind this benefit that I was involved with. That's

Doug Shapiro: 14:26

That’s kinda sort of the musical we did together, right?

Deborah Tranelli: 14:28

Yes. Absolutely. The guardianship. Yep. So you know, it was kind of a year where I felt turned upside down in a way as we all did, and having to learn new technology and having to sort of revamping a career to do as much virtually as possible and balance that with with the caregiver, long-distance caregiver.

Colin Hunter: 14:49

It's actually Melanie, I mean, Thandiwe Newton was reading an article about her, and she was saying as an actress, she got to the point wherein her younger life she was dealing with her identity, she found acting was an escape for her, it was the place where she felt most comfortable and outside. And actually, for you, I'm sure this is the case. And for me, it's been massive over the last 18 months is it gives you an insight to humanity, it gives intense insight to what other people are coping with empathy, and acting must, you must be able to pull on that resource as well. Because to go into your roles and do what we do, or even just the patient side, particularly, to go there's that bit about empathizing with your character and the circumstances they're in and working there. So, in theory, you could be in a very sad circumstance or a rich source of creative art coming out of this in terms of helping people to deal with it.

Deborah Tranelli: 15:46

And I think that during a time like this, you really do, without trying to sound cliche or trite, find out, you know, what you're made of? Yeah, your metal? I mean, how strong are you? I mean, you think about it, throughout our history of humanity, there have been people overcoming, you know, I'm, I'm a daughter of depression, you know, to survivors, when you really find out not only what you're made up, but what your true priorities are. What gets you up every day, either drives you, excites you, gives you pleasure, gives you solace, whatever that is, you really kind of have that more time to focus on that during times like this. And I did find that I was pleasantly surprised in the middle of a lot of the chaos that we've gone through not only as a health crisis, but for us in our country, that there are, you know, the good kind, decent people, and many of them and many more of them, or who unselfishly put themselves out there. And that, that keeps me going when I start kind of going down that slippery slope of little, you know, sadness.

Colin Hunter: 16:53

Yeah. And I think it's okay, you know, we're doing a lot around Positive Intelligence at the moment, it's okay to have your voices that are saying this is rubbish, and, you know, not coping. And it's, you know, mental health has been massively raised by this. Yeah. It's, it's good in many ways, but it's also it's, it's bringing up for a lot of people, what do they want to do? Yeah, where do they want to be? So I want to, I want to come back to something you were saying that would be the focus. I'm just about record the audible version of the book. And I was thinking I would have to go into a, you know, a modern studio with soundproof walls bit as you see in the movies, where they're recording music and go in and do all of this. And I was told what I need to do is go into my closet, and hide amongst my clothes, with a microphone, my laptop, and just gonna do that, which is not the most glamorous thing I've ever been asked to do in my life.

Doug Shapiro: 17:48

It’s hot and uncomfortable.

Deborah Tranelli: 17:52

But it's, it's quiet, the clothes are a great buffer for knowing they really, I've gotten so used. I've been doing it now for years. A high school friend has a production company in upstate New York and asked me to do some work for them. And because of their generosity, with a wonderful microphone, and a handheld Zoom recorder, and having an apartment, which has a nice big walk-in closet that I can sit in

Colin Hunter: 18:16

I know your clothes, of course, I mean, with

Deborah Tranelli: 18:19

lots and lots of clothes, of course, I kind of find it to be a cocoon-like it really helps me just to focus it, you know, close the room door and the closet door and I because of them and their generosity, I've been able to, you know, do work for many more people. So it's a do audition as well, because voiceover work, we still have to audition whether COVID seer or not that work has to be done. So it's, I mean, once it is warm, you do have to sort of take breaks and let the fresh air and all that. But I find it very soothing. Actually,

Colin Hunter: 18:56

yeah, I'm going to try it. So I'm going to try. And it's a sort of tenuous link I'm going to make here because it's lying in the Witch and the Wardrobe, you know, good stepping into the wardrobe and going into that space. But actually, there's a piece in here that reminds me of being a child, and you know, hiding, you're playing hide and seek hiding in the wardrobe all of these when it comes to me that ten years Linkwood is going into it, which is playgrounds because what we're about is creating playgrounds. And one of the huge successes of our business has been the two of you and the rest of our actors that we've been involved with in terms of the notion, and Doug, by the way, is just doing his false modesty to start.

Doug Shapiro: 19:33

Oh, Start!

Colin Hunter: 19:35

Start, go for it. And

Colin Hunter: 19:38

come on a bit more, a bit more. But it is true because there's a piece in here that when we talk about the playgrounds for the last 10 to 15 years, actors have been creating a playground for people to explore different conversations, different ways, different skills. For the listeners, what could you describe to me? What what the actors have done in the bits of forum theatre of why it's so special? Rather than me talking about it, why don't you? Yeah,

Deborah Tranelli: 20:11

I think the whole concept of form Theatre, which is allowing people, the theatrical concept of dealing with their communication issues, their communication skills, their interpersonal relationships, their trust relationships, who wouldn't necessarily have the opportunity to do that in their workplace, this gives them a safe environment, where we can explore issues they're having, and try to speak their language with them through our language of the theatre of performance to support that. Truly, I think the most important thing is a safe place. They need to know that they can, you know, be with us and explore issues that they're having and have some kind of constructive atmosphere to work through that and to guide them.

Doug Shapiro: 21:03

It's our job as actors is to help people go through whatever it is they need to go throughout this time in a visceral way. There's nothing purer than this. Like right at the moment, we make a better doctor, a better technician, a better leader, a better manager because people some people learn visually Some people learn audibly. Auditorially. Yeah, kinesthetically. Is that the word kinetically.

Colin Hunter: 21:27

Yeah, kinesthetically.

Doug Shapiro: 21:28

They just put the right word in there. But in terms of so, they get to get up there with us and try it out. So they've been hearing it from the incredible facilitators, they've heard the theory, they've seen the slides, and now they get to jump in there, and try it with their body and build a site to have conflict, come back at them and actually succeed in resolving a situation. You can bring that to real-life circumstances. And Deborah, you were sharing with me earlier when we were sitting there? We were getting ready for a gig, and somebody came up to us,

Deborah Tranelli: 22:01

oh, I would say that the satisfaction we get, sometimes we're in the middle of it. We have good days and better days and some days where we think, oh, did we really come through for them and the way they need it? We feel this incredible responsibility to at least have some growth. Sometimes it's huge for us, you know, sometimes we have these huge aha moments. And other days, we leave going, did we do our best for them? That's what we always analyze. Doug and I always do sort of

Colin Hunter: 22:31

Restlessly dissatisfied restlessly to satisfy

Deborah Tranelli: 22:33

Because no matter how much you work on a form theatre, or how much you work on the characters that we're presenting them, or how much you truly listen and try to help them help themselves, you feel sometimes maybe you've fallen short. And then we walk into session months, even years afterward. And someone comes up to us and says, it's so great to see you guys. I just wanted you to know that a few months ago, I had almost exactly the same situation. Wouldn't one of my work with one of my direct reports. And I had such confidence. And I had such success with them because of my time spent with you. I felt like I could do it. And I had the tools. And that's, that's the most rewarding thing we could ever get.

Doug Shapiro: 23:20

That's [inaudible]

Colin Hunter: 23:23

it's great. For those who are listening, I'll be going. Okay, so once when they say to get up here, have a go for maybe just tell them about how forum theatre is set up. Because it sounds daunting. It sounds, you know, I was always told that I should go do some improv on the stage and do comedy and improv. And just I'm like, No, that would be scary as hell. So for a lot of people, even listening to this thought about going up with actors and interacting with them is scary. But tell him to tell us how we set it up, how you set it up? And therefore, how less scary it is once you're up there and how we operate.

Doug Shapiro: 24:00

So forum theatre is one of the several forms that we use in service to potential squared clients. In this one, it's kind of the most scripted, I guess. Yeah, in a sense, in the beginning. So Deborah and I will be up there; there'll be one controllable character and one uncontrollable character. So the control character is usually the manager not doing a very good job. The uncontrollable character is one to whom the manager needs to be of better service. So Deborah, being that she's only 35.

Deborah Tranelli: 24:35

I’m gonna live with this forever now.

Doug Shapiro: 24:38

and the intern.

Deborah Tranelli: 24:40

I’ll play the 18-year-old young intern.

Doug Shapiro: 24:42

and I'm the manager trying to do well, and I'm just going on talking to her rather than getting information from her. And then, she leaves herding confused, and the participants watch this scenario. They watch it go terribly. And then the facilitator would say, how'd that go? And they'll have, and then they get to give some advice to me the controllable character, hopefully, one, two or three pieces of advice. Yeah, I take their input. I try again, and I do marginally better. And then we run it again. And they're given a, an invisible remote, we could say, and they can

Colin Hunter: 25:20

Remote Control, Yeah.

Doug Shapiro: 25:21

Remote control so they can stop us. Rewind us. Mind tap either of us. I, Deborah, what did you think when you said that? Deborah, what were you thinking when she gave you that face. But then what we really want them to do is the fourth option is to jump in for the manager, the controllable character; some call it Hot Seat, others just try to call it the welcoming chair, which

Colin Hunter: 25:43

It never seems that welcoming does it.

Deborah Tranelli: 25:46

I just think having a go is

Doug Shapiro: 25:48

have a go at it

Deborah Tranelli: 25:49

have a go at it.

Doug Shapiro: 25:50

It’s the have a go chair.

Deborah Tranelli: 25:52

And then that's kind of where the real learning, the real learning, happens. Because this is when they have the opportunity to try to put what they've watched and observations they've made into action, try to have the outcome be better for the uncontrollable character, the job then of the actor who's in that seat is to respond truly, to what they're saying. Never, as we say, Don't reward them if they haven't, given what you need to because there isn't there is an objective, even if we have an objective of what we have the of the outcome that we're hoping will happen during

Colin Hunter: 26:28

this degree of subduing something here, because when we're recruiting for the business role player, one of the key things I always remember that, that rehearsal studio that we were, we were recruiting, and we have that and I, every time I walked out the door, it was like something of a movie because all you could hear is off to see the Wizard. The road new characters coming in, we were going back in, but it was honestly couldn't have been better in terms of the stark reality between a musical theatre being rehearsed down the corridor, in our room, it was getting people back from the acting side to play the real characters so that they can blend in as a really, truly this would be a person I would encounter in the organizers. So as we would say, in the UK, removing the lovey from the actor or removing the stage, the jazz hands in that and stripping it back to

Doug Shapiro: 27:21

What's happening mean by the lovey?. Okay.

Colin Hunter: 27:23

Yeah, it's, that's, I mean, it's the richer the guild goods in this world would be the hard, darling amongst stage.

Deborah Tranelli: 27:30

And we want them to feel like they have a genuine interaction with someone; we go to the extremes the first time just to give them an idea of the bad, which we struggle with sometimes because we want to

Doug Shapiro: 27:40

we want to do it, right.

Deborah Tranelli: 27:43

That's our biggest struggle, we will say to each other. Now, remember, she dumped me; you're supposed to do it badly. So because where's the learning if we do it right and show them the right way to do it, that is the challenge, not being an actor to truly listen to what the feedback they're giving you and the language they're using. So that we can mirror back to them so they can see where their learning needs to happen or where they're starting to get it. That's the really hard part. Like I said that I forgot how you referred to it as the pinch.

Colin Hunter: 28:21

The pinch and the ouch yeah, which never really, I keep using and people go I don't understand, I don't know is what do you mean by the pinch and the ouch, but it is that bit that if let's say you've got different styles coming up to that always remember, there was a famous workshop where the non-controllable character was up there, the seat was free. And I had an audience of 15 senior leaders, who all probably went out one after another, trying to solve the problem, right? One was rejected and spat out by the non-controllable characters. So they were, yep, that's fine, but it's not going to solve my problem. But by seeing 15 different varieties of it, people are able to learn and go up as a different way of doing I could adopt a bit of that. So by the time that the last person comes up, they've got a flavor of different ingredients that they can go into that so that it is important that if somebody is giving you an as an actor of their a pinch, that you give a proportionate ouch back to them so that they get a feel for what it looks like.

Doug Shapiro: 29:25

Right? And that's both good and bad. So if you're, you know, if you're playing someone who's there are different models we've worked with, but if we're working with a buddy, if we're working with that model, and the person asks you about, how's life at home, that'd be a positive Ouch. Oh, they did that thing where they worked on the relationship and tried to talk with the person rather than solve a problem. Great. Now I get to give them this reward.

Colin Hunter: 29:51

Yeah. And those styles are important, though. You picked up a different thing because it's got to feel real. So we're going to encounter the analyst the detail conscious. We're gonna encounter the dealer as we would call them, which has been negotiator, we're gonna encounter the general, which is

Doug Shapiro: 30:07

how much, by when?

Deborah Tranelli: 30:09

And this is important for us to what we do those to be very clear as to who they are to not muddy the water for them. So sometimes we do go to the extreme a little bit to make clear who is the personality that they're dealing with. I think that it's very important that we in the improv style or have clarity flowing into it.

Doug Shapiro: 30:29

And we were discussing earlier because we both become geeks about this, thanks to you are we've worked with some actors that take pleasure in Oh, I'm really going to give it to them this time.

Colin Hunter: 30:43

Yeah.

Doug Shapiro: 30:43

And what I've learned is how much by when just give me a just overview, bullet-pointed for me, I don't want a nicey nice, I don't want anything like that. But that doesn't mean that they're shouting; it doesn't mean that there's anger because you can just not smile. And say, please just get to the point. And the person's gonna feel the same way as if you're shouting at them. So why cause them emotional trauma and send them to the psychologist because you want to have your big lovey moments, as you said before, when just by not smiling at them, they'll get it viscerally. And feeling that way you're in service to them, rather than going for your Oscar,

Deborah Tranelli: 31:24

and you don't want to shut them down. I don't want to shut right down; I don't want to put up such a wall immediately that there isn't room for negotiation. It's a bit, you know, that contract that we talk about in conversation and trust. I mean, we're trying to grow here; we're not trying to dig the trench deeper.

Colin Hunter: 31:43

And we've got three levels, somebody because we talk about easy as your I call but easier as the I'm sure somebody thought of a better name. And where you know, you're, you're almost identifying to them early on that they haven't given you an agenda for the meeting. So they're saying it is there an agenda for the meeting. So it's easing somebody in who's maybe on a low awareness, low confidence, or scared, yeah, to be there and easing up. And then we talk about raising it up a level where you've got three curveballs that you're going to throw in. So there's a progressive story, and that's a real skill that I love that you folks do is the ability to know when to throw a curveball and to allow them to sweat a bit. But then to allow to know when to play that and not give up all three curveballs at the same time and keep a conversation because these can last up to 20 minutes up to 45 minutes before,

Deborah Tranelli: 32:32

And our facilitators are very helpful to, you know, just a little whisper in the ear in between this person.

Doug Shapiro: 32:37

Virtually a little something in the chat bar.

Deborah Tranelli: 32:42

Oh, That's great. You're in the middle, and you're like, oh, I'm gonna try to read what they're saying.

Colin Hunter: 32:47

Well, maintaining eye contact with the camera

Deborah Tranelli: 32:50

Well, maintaining eye contact with the camera and truly listening. Yeah, it is a lot of, you know, rubbing belly fat head.

Colin Hunter: 32:56

We'll come to that in a second. Because the use of zoom nowadays has been, I was one of the people who said no way. Can we do what we do virtually? And I've been, we're getting.

Doug Shapiro: 33:06

worse. And that's why you're ahead. Yeah.

Colin Hunter: 33:10

So looking back, level two is about three gerbils. Now, in level three, we talked about soft mouth Rottweiler. Because you don't let them go. But as you say, it's not aggressive. It's just that whatever they say is not going to give you the answer. So it's a real workout to do them. But it must figure I always feel must because as an actor if I was up there, I want to give them something and whatnot. You know, saying yeah, tough to do.

Deborah Tranelli: 33:38

I could just think of one word that would like key you into that?

Colin Hunter: 33:43

Page Five on your brief.

Deborah Tranelli: 33:47

It's right here.

Doug Shapiro: 33:50

rhyme with what they're supposed to be saying.

Deborah Tranelli: 33:53

What did You perhaps me?

Colin Hunter: 33:57

And this was the real pose around talking to clients about why we use actors, because mostly I said, Well, we can do roleplay we could get people in participants and triads, three people do roleplay. But the piece for me is that it's easy when you're in the trial to give up to give them something or to say that it's great when it isn't. Whereas you're trained to actually stay in the moment and give people not a hard time but a tough time, a real stretch. And what you do tell us.

Doug Shapiro: 34:26

You’re working with each other, I mean, that's you have to see these people that work. Yeah. So you and even if you're, you know, you strategically making people from different departments, word will get around.

Deborah Tranelli: 34:38

And we're going to leave them dry. I mean, we're leaving work. They really, I mean, even though sometimes we leave and we're exhausted, and we're like, you know I fail, I'm a failure. We leave the scene we have to feel that we've left them with some tools to go forward with. We can handle it. We can take the people to say to us that would never have happened in my situation. I would never use that language, and then someone else will say, Oh, absolutely, though that I know that person.

Doug Shapiro: 35:06

Yeah, that was the very first one that I ever did for potential squared. I was terrified. I'm like, Okay, here we go, real person. And it turns out that the participant for this particular one had been fighting them on everything the whole time. I didn't notice because I hadn't been in the room. So I went in there, they asked me to be more relationship-oriented and very unfocused. That's sure. So I go in and talk about things important things out the window, and we're done. And the participant said, Well, I've never encountered anyone, whoever would have been like that. So inside like, well, it was wonderful working with this company. And then CO by people raised their hand and said, I have met that guy and worked with him. And then Karen Eisenthal, a facilitator, backed me up and said. Actually, he did exactly what he was trained to do. Yeah. And that, like, that's a potential squared thing. Yeah, that is a, we've got your back. We're trying it. We're, you know when we're, and they are people that support each other. Yeah. Karen was right there for me that first day she met me that day. She didn't, and I don’t know if she notified me I'd been trained.

Colin Hunter: 36:14

Does she know your name yet? Doug? Yeah, she Yeah, she then. Yeah. Wonderful, Karen; who would want to mention all the facilitators are brilliant, but it is that space of psychological safety for the actors. It's maybe the first gig, and I love, you know, when we've got actors in that space that they're learning, they're trying to do stuff. And what I also love about the two of you is that you keep introducing other people, even though that's your work, you know, to get that, but

Doug Shapiro: 36:43

it's the world of London. Yep. Everyone.

Colin Hunter: 36:48

Yeah, absolutely. So I wanted to come back into how you get into character for that because there's another bit in here that is built up over time. And you know, we do when we're training with the actors, there's a time where, say, you've got to get to level three, you've got to release it, you got to release it. And there's a desert, but there's also about the knowledge of the role plays because that's massive, other people say, so how would these people know, technology, internal audit, as you're going to do, coming up very shortly? So how would you get into the role? And how would you keep yourself trained up to do that?

Deborah Tranelli: 37:27

I face it the same way I would an acting role. I mean, I do my research, I think the most important thing is to understand the culture, as we say, the culture of the business, no matter what it is, there's so different, and there is so very different to learn there. Even things like their infrastructure and how they're, you know, that what a direct report is to them, what their relationship is, how they, from the sea, you know, from the top down, how they treat people, what that kind of relationship is, what their expectations of their people are, the technology? Absolutely, we've got to know the language. I mean, there's time to do a timeout going; you're going too deep in the weeds of that, no.

Colin hunter: 38:04

I have no clue what you just said.

Deborah Tranelli: 38:06

But when we're dealing with internal audits, we have to understand, we've learned hundreds of terminologies and acronyms for a certain client because that's the only way we can serve them. So we do have to do our homework. I mean, there's a limit sometimes to how deeply we go in because the exercise is specific, but I think we were not of service to them if we didn't learn their language. Yeah. So that's, you know, and how they dress and how they comport themselves. Socialize, you're right, or don't socialize or whatever, is some of that you learn; I mean, with one of our clients without them, we've been with them for so long, we kind of understand that culture now. But there are always changes in that too.

Colin Hunter: 38:52

Great. And also, that's the key bit, isn't it, the strategy changes, the culture changes, the size of the organization changes, or, or even just, you know, when we're getting into this now, the use of zoom, versus face to face, but actually what the brilliant thing is, and you're hinting at it, we went, we flipped to do a virtual, but one of the key things that helped me in space through that was to say, our clients are going to be going through the virtual, so if we can role model how to do virtual remote training in the virtual to give, so we had to raise again. But the acting piece was the bit that I always thought one how this is, how's this gonna work? So talk to me about some of the changes you've noticed, apart from the fact that Karen sent you a chat function and a message going about, you know, tweak, tweak, and you're trying to read it on the go, but what changed in terms of your skills neurons.

Doug Shapiro: 39:44

Now it's really timing because we've gone from an eight-hour day to one and a half to two hours. So when business roleplay happens, it's really quick. You get one, maybe two people in a very short amount of time. Though the learning needs to happen a lot sooner, what I'm starting to learn as I go on with this is what behavior Am I listening for by saying a certain something? Like if I know, there's a point that Karen, Rachel, or whoever the facilitator is that they're trying to hold up, what can I say that can present an opportunity for that participant to rise to the occasion or make another choice that they need to be called on. But it's a lot faster, a lot more compact. And because there's not as much freedom to be like, you don't guys; we're gonna do that in the afternoon. So sit tight, or whatever, we can't do that. You've got to do it in that time.

Deborah Tranelli: 40:40

I think the biggest difference for me is the is that that we visceral, but that energy of being in a room, a live room with people, you know, I mean, surely in the same room, and being on screen together, and keeping people focused, and keeping their attention while it's happening. Because if you're in a room, you tend to kind of you can't really, I mean, people might try to look at the phone or whatever. But when you're in a room with a facilitator standing there, and there's action up at the front of the room, they kind of tend to focus more; it's very easy to oh, I've got a call, I've got to go off-camera, you know, we lose them, that kind of thing. So trying to keep them engaged, we've increased instead of more forum theatre situations, what we call real play them as folks to have them be prepared before the session starts because we don't have that time to take people's back.

Colin Hunter: 41:33

a bit on that, because I love the bespoke, and I love the real-time.

Doug Shapiro: 41:38

That's our favorite to-do, frankly, yeah. Because we obsessively prepare, like, we're just we look, we know the material, we played this case for five years. And we're always right up until we go into looking at the paper.

Deborah Tranelli: 41:51

and we make it alive and fresh. And you know,

Doug Shapiro: 41:52

and you can't do that. Because with the bespoke, they're told, and actually, they present? Well, actually, we kind of need this now. More related. So who's the person? Do you talk with them via Skype phone or in person?

Deborah Tranelli: 42:07

personality traits

Doug Shapiro: 42:09

Yeah, where would you put them on? On whatever model we're using, personality-wise? And what are two obstacles you're going to throw at you? Okay? And what does good look like? Right?

Deborah Tranelli: 42:19

What's your objective? What's a good look like? Like,

Colin Hunter: 42:21

say Selena is in the audience; she's going to come to you. And she's going to say; I'm really struggling with this particular client. And this client is a general, really tough character. And they're going to throw this at me; they're going to hear, have this bit of history. And that's done pretty much like that, too. And then you need to improve around that to give her that? Yeah, yeah, it's amazing.

Deborah Tranelli: 42:46

The thing is that, okay, immediately you say generally to me, if I'm a general, my relationship to you, and I know, no one can see, I'm going to lean in, and I'm going to be very, my physical into the cameras watching,

Colin Hunter: 42:58

Those watching gets scary, you know, it's you’re in there.

Deborah Tranelli: 43:02

But if I'm kind of a buddy, I might like to sit back; I might look off, I might, my way of interacting on camera is going to be different. So it can affect that physical energy. In the room together, those are some of the things you worked on.

Doug Shapiro: 43:16

Because during the like no actors or movie producers and lighting designers in costume.

Deborah Tranelli: 43:21

That's a great point. What we've tried to do is help them when they're doing the real play, say, it's not only what you're saying, it's how you're presenting yourself. You're off-camera, the lighting issues, the position of the camera, how much heads room is over you, all those things affect how you become an effective communicator virtually. So we've added those elements now.

Doug Shapiro: 43:42

Yeah, that's

Colin Hunter: 43:44

Brilliant, I'm because I love it. I mean, I'm standing up to do the podcast, but standing up suddenly became my way of demonstrating competence, conviction connection with your other three things.

Doug Shapiro: 43:53

that well, you've also got the right amount of space above your head, you've got your mind. Okay.

Deborah Tranelli: 43:58

You know, some people have their screen here, which is on because they can, but they're actually doing the work. They're actually using their phone. So what you'll see is I'm talking to you, I tell the audience, I'm not even looking at you. Yeah, they're communicating. Well, I'm over here; I hear you've now totally dissipated any kind of effective communication, right? Because you're not looking at me.

Colin Hunter: 44:22

No. And it's interesting because we're even now starting to teach people that it's okay to look away because of the visuals stimulus and the amount of stuff that people need to hang on to, and looking at a zoom screen is tough. So I've started to say if I'm coaching somebody, I'm going to look away from the screen, I'm going to sit as a coach and have my eyes angled away so that they can do the same, so all they need to do is think about the issue and not worry what they're how they're looking on the screen. So it's interesting because it is that that visual and vocal I'm here, you know, but also when you're coaching sometimes or even mentoring. Even just listening, that ability to make eye contact during a move is important. So I think we're learning a whole new set of skills now.

Deborah Tranelli: 45:09

Well, perfect contracting, which I think is true, we contract upfront. Some people just don't want to be on camera that day. They just, you know, and if it's okay, and sometimes that's okay. If you are just doing a, you know, like you said, you're just doing the listening mode, it's okay to just have sometimes people feel free or to know that they're not every movement isn't being watched that they can just communicate as if they were on the phone. Yep. Yeah. And those are different skill sets as well. So

Colin Hunter: 45:37

because it's the fear for me, we talk about face to face and the virtual, but the face to face as you're in a class of 20 people in a big room, and suddenly you have been asked to go up and be on stage in front of you, your peers, there is a degree that Zoom allows you to just because we switch everybody else's cameras obviously only got the act of plus the individual of their so it's almost as if they and even they can switch off their self-view on Zoom till it does allow people to concentrate on how they're thinking how they're feeling. And we are getting the feedback that for introverted thinkers, it's better sometimes; face-to-face sounds good.

Doug Shapiro: 46:14

But I miss the person; it is effective for doing it rising to the occasion. But just to get on a train and go to a location and walk into their building and say, We're here for a service dog, as opposed to like, oh, well, we caught him for an hour in between scooping the cat litter and doing his laundry. Yeah, no, no.

Deborah Tranelli: 46:35

Yeah, there was, as the human contact, as we know, as we know, even more so after this year. I mean, we're both vaccinated was like we've had for the first time or whatever. It's like, it's okay. We

Colin Hunter: 46:52

I missed the hugs, though. I mean,

Deborah Tranelli: 46:56

beings, I mean, we touch. It's important to us. I agree. No, but also, I feel that we've learned that we can still be effective in what we do, virtually if this is the means by which we can continue to do the good work and to teach and help other people learn, you know, good communicating skills and be better leaders, better co-workers, better team members that then that's what we're aiming for, and

Doug Shapiro: 47:24

to be of service to a couple of different companies on the same day. Yeah. Well, I think that's it.

Deborah Tranelli: 47:29

I mean, Doug and I could have been in separate places, but we chose to be together. In New Jersey,

Colin Hunter: 47:37

I do think there is something in that because the acting world and profession mean that if you're taking a whole day out to go somewhere like Boston from New York, and then you, it's a whole day, and therefore you might be on set for 2,3,3 times, whereas now in the virtual world, you can do shorter smaller gigs. Yeah. And in theory, it provides more flexibility as well. Is that the case?

Doug Shapiro: 48:00

Yes. And there's also a pay differential as well. Yeah. That sort of makes you land on the full day of being preferred. But

Colin Hunter: 48:12

the candle hotel, and you love the terrain and the

Doug Shapiro: 48:15

are hotels donating PJs?

Colin Hunter: 48:21

Yeah, for those listening, there is an amazing picture of Doug and Deborah, who are sitting in bed in PJs that were provided by the Kendall hotel; I wonder if we'll get a plug maybe sponsorship on the back end of the podcast, but the Kendall Hotel in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Doug Shapiro: 48:35

Well, the Cash 22 is we have to be able to go back there in order to give them the money they need to sponsor the broadcast.

Deborah Tranelli: 48:46

Truthfully, I'm grateful that we are continuing to work; we have this opportunity. I don't know what we would have done had it presented itself. So I guess we're in a whole new era of finding ways to continue to do the good work. Potential does and reach out to as many people as possible. So absolutely. That's so we're grateful for it. But we do miss there are things we do miss about the old days.

Colin Hunter: 49:12

The old days, where we used to be able to hug, and yeah, not missing those, hopefully soon, hopefully.

Deborah Tranelli: 49:18

Well, it also was great for us because that was a way for us to we did our work on the trade to have time to prepare in a relaxed environment for us. And you know, Doug and I challenge each other. We're good about that. We really are each other's best supporters. But we also challenge each other, which is important. How do we grow with someone who keeps just saying that's

Doug Shapiro: 49:39

You are wonderful.

Deborah Tranelli: 49:43

That's our own trust equation here. We've got each other's back. And that's a great gift. And I think we've always felt that way. And that's why

Doug Shapiro: 49:53

Well, it also helps us with everything that we learned from the facilitators and from you about, like, Oh, so now we're presenting it to each other with the correct EEC Feedback.

Colin Hunter: 50:05

I can't like I wonder. It's great to do. So I'm going to be aware there are a few people listening at the beginning of the podcast who picked up when she was on a TV show. What was the TV show? Yeah. So that's one. And also, I mentioned earlier, we are an eclectic mix of past times and hobbies, including one on a Sunday morning. Yeah. So I wanted to just, towards the end, now get back into you as individuals in the background, but going Deborah, what was the show? Why everybody's, you know, leaning? I am a self-convinced geek when I work with all our actors. I'm going like, well, I've seen you what, and the first thing that are the participants saying is, what will they ever see you in?

Deborah Tranelli: 50:52

You know, they always ask us that. Do you want to just introduce yourself? Or do you want to give your credits, and we're sort of like, I just, I don't really want to do that upfront. If afterward, they wonder, I'll tell them, but because that's always a frequency I started at, you know, my first show was when I was 13, The Sound of Music in Schenectady, New York, was huge for me, okay, that was, I literally negotiated, I contracted my parents to allow me to audition for it. So that's where it started. That led me to go into college at Northwestern University in Chicago. And I started my career there. And I was planning to go to New York. And someone's a few friends who had gone out to LA already said, come to LA, you work, you work. I went, okay. So I have no fear, no worries about judgment, anything. I drove across the country, and with no agent, no anything. And a month later landed a part on the series Dallas; we had already been in production; I ended up doing 11 seasons that ten and a half years of the show with much other television, and still Theatre in my blood. And I was I'm a singer, you know, recording concerts, everything else. And then, when the series ended, I found my way back in New York; I just decided at an age that was a little scarier, although my family was all on the eastern coast of the United States, to move back east and start again in New York. So it's always about the issue of believing that you've done the work that you're prepared for. And whatever happens, is always a gift. No matter, just as in artwork, you can prepare and prepare and prepare. But once you get in it, you have no idea, and you go with what happens. You know, it's been a wonderful experience. For me, everything I never thought I'd go to the West Coast and the television series that was never in my vision. But I've always sort of just gone with my gut and done the hard work. And that's, I guess, do me in pretty good stead there are still things I hope to accomplish. But I'm only 35. There's a lot of work, lots of living to do speaking of my CD. But you know, as with Doug, you know, I recorded for Braille for four years in Los Angeles, which was a wonderful experience pre the plethora of audiobooks now. I mean, it was old-fashioned tape, editing, and everything. Incredibly rewarding teaching, mentoring. And giving back to all the mentors who helped me along the way, you know, all the amazing actors that I have met and looked up to and got to meet and learn from, I think that's the most important thing. Once you've got that great volume of work, you can now pass it on to the next generation and that work ethic. And I do think that's an important thing. I think a work ethic is vital, and how you show up every day to do your best. I think that's what I tried to do. Can I talk about one of the things that I just thought was crazy in my life and sort of got out of my safety zone? Yeah. I flew on a trapeze and circus of the stars. Wow. I don't think you knew that.

Doug Shapiro: 54:06

I did not know, no.

Colin Hunter: 54:07

Oh, it's googleable, though.

Is it? Yeah

Deborah Tranelli

54:09

It’s the show called Circus of the stars. There was a panel thing, and we trained, we truly trained, we auditioned and trained almost for three and a half to four months, five, six days a week, several hours a day. I flew on a trapeze, and we did an entire trapeze act that you know was performed, so yes, the 13th annual circus of the star, as you can

Colin Hunter: 54:34

I Google and see what it is.

Deborah Tranelli: 54:37

absolutely faced fear every single day. Wow. Yeah, I have psychological and physical challenges. Athletic challenge. I was an athlete, but nothing prepared me for this to climb the ladder every day. Yeah. And with you know, special gloves and chalk and swing on that trapeze and absolutely challenge me, and face that fears every day was unlike anything I've ever done. And yet truly one of the most satisfying, ultimately things that I did, because I knew I was going to make mistakes, I knew I was gonna have to relearn things and learn new things. And it might work, and it might not, but there was no going back; I had committed myself to it. And I feel that has done me in good stead moving forward. Because it didn't, it was the doing of it. That was important. Not the success of it that was important.

Colin Hunter: 55:35

Consciously stepping out, so when we talk about sailing the ship out of the harbor, that's

Deborah Tranelli: 55:39

definitely out of my comfort zone; I saved you. And I still get sweaty palms when I think about what I did, you know, but that would be a huge one for me. And so, nothing much else can scare me beyond that.

Colin Hunter: 55:55

I did a bungee jump in New Zealand 125 meters off a bridge rubber attached and but the high I had for three days after that was incredible. But it's that I've got a fear of heights. So why would you jump off a really good bridge to do that? But there is something about stretching ourselves and going and learning.

Deborah Tranelli: 56:14

And even though we had obviously had a net, you know that most of the areas like students have netted just for the safety factor. The week before we were going to film, I might I did; we had double catchers. You know what? That piece is always one, but we have one that was up above, see this one through the bottom one up to the top one back down. And I was doing a specific movement or trick, as we call them. The catcher missed my legs, and I went face-first into the neck, which was excruciatingly painful. And the producers said they still happened to be there that day. It was Saturday. And they would come and see what we've done all week had never missed and all the months have been training that was the day, and they said we're not gonna let her do it. And that's, and I said you're not going to let me do it. Oh, I sprained all this time. So it was really I'm really fighting for that which is not in my nature to fight protects, and I did because it was gonna happen. We're gonna make it happen. So

Colin Hunter: 57:15

formidable lady in your own right. I can imagine you going No.

Deborah Tranelli: 57:21

Yes, At least I say no,

Colin Hunter: 57:24

definitely no. And Doug tells us a bit about the bit I love, and I can say I'm a person by this year. A Jewish man, a gay man, living in Manhattan. And then, on Sunday morning, you had often done this.

Doug Shapiro: 57:39

I sing at the Madison Avenue Baptist Church, and I have had them for about 15 over 15 years now. Fantastic, isn't it? And they actually do get my spiritual food from them. The pastor is a former trial lawyer is, a professional comedian, and rides a Harley.

Colin Hunter: 57:57

run us through that. Again. Three things use Yeah.

Doug Shapiro: 58:01

She's a professional comedian, a former trial lawyer, and rides a Harley. Wow. Susan sparks brilliant comedian, and I've read her books for Doug and Chico presents. In the end, but also in what you talked about, of the six of us who sing for the other five are people that I've recommended. And they're still working there. Yeah, I know. If I know of a job opportunity, I will stop giving someone CPR to like wait a minute; I didn't look at my contract to see if someone I think I know some. I want my friends to get work. They're my family. My response is I want to make just it's like breathing for me.

Colin Hunter: 58:44

Yeah. And it's part of you. Because every time you sign off a letter or note, you have an expression, which is the other thing

Doug Shapiro: 58:52

is that we have a well-lived today. Yeah. What is that? She got the directly from Susan Sparks, your pastor, the church she did. She did a sermon about you know how people feel when you say Have a nice day like you tell them that no matter what they're going through, and you're informing them that they have to feel a certain way about it. But have a well-lived today is, you know, even if you're at the bottom of whatever pit you're in, and you're feeling awful, and everything looks hopeless, you could still live well that day. I'm like, Yeah, I'm on board with that. The church-like potential squared has pivoted, don't just do what they could, and we got it online. And so now all the singers, record their solos from home, on the camera and learn all this stuff and you and I to lean in and learn it. Then we get it done by the Wednesday before the service. Travis, the amazing editor, stitches it all together. And on Sunday at 11 o'clock, there's a service for everyone. And now we're like, No, we're doing group numbers, or we see our part, and they just teach all the parts together, and then they've got a group number duet, which kind of leads into your mind uncomfortable face. There was a point Deborah was making earlier about being absolutely prepared for when the free clock hits. Yeah, that's how you get your agents is how you get any job. That's how anything. So I had to do the stuff for the church; it had to be done. So I had to figure out a way to do it. And, you know, the year I turned 50, you'll know when you reach my age, Deborah.

Deborah Tranelli: 1:00:26

This occasion will be back out again.

Doug Shapiro: 1:00:33

So you had to learn all this new technology and not just the ring light, but how to get the right microphone to record into it and put it into iMovie and into Audacity and then delete that track and add that one. And that was my button. If I don't know something, someone else is going to be inconvenienced because of my deficiency. That is what really takes me to the bad place. And there were three to five times during the pandemic where I was like; I couldn't make the technology work. And I was on my knees sobbing just end because, in my head, I am a horrible person. Because I couldn't shift, right because I couldn't shift and learn how to work all this new technology in one moment. And sometimes I'd be doing with Chico, the parrot on my shoulder who'd be leaning in, on my knees sobbing, and he'd be going, Chico, Chico, Chico, which you could say it's the only word he knows he was comforting me or looking at me still thinks it's about him. Crisis. But as far as stretching myself, I've actually learned how to do it; I reached out to the right people. And not only my recording my stuff from home, but it's also been getting better. The voiceover career has gone well, you know. And so the things that were left from all the things that I do were voiceover recording from a recording from home; I recorded a whole musical from home while I had COVID—singing, mixing into the thing, laying down getting up singing that thing again, because the show's got to go on. You don't have to do this. This is not an example. But you should do take care of yourself. I chose to do this. Like an idiot, but it was union. I got an agent, you know; I didn't read it on my LinkedIn to reflect my business roleplay more and made a video about it got more work as a result. And so showed what was in me that I didn't know there. And you don't have to do that. You can, you know, if you just lay there and watch TV and hold yourself in an afghan. That's what you needed to do. I needed to prove that I could move forward with my career. And I did it for my basement, and I'm still doing it.

Colin Hunter: 1:02:45

Yeah, no, And hopefully not for well, maybe it'll be a bit of basement, but hopefully a bit of face-to-face. And maybe some Barnstormers Yeah, if I go there.

Doug Shapiro: 1:02:52

Yeah, this year, it's we have new interim art. Oh, Barnstormers. For those of you that don't know, it's the Barnstormers Theatre in Tamworth, New Hampshire. And this will be my 20th season with that. I know. And so the new interim artistic director also likes started as a sophomore, someone that I've mentored and taught him the business technique. He had it on his own, but he is now got to the point where he's produced musicals on Broadway and is a Tony Award-winning producer, and now he's the artistic director. And he's made a point of, okay, we have a smaller season. And I'm going to try and get as many of the Barnstormers out there as I can. So no one's getting more than one show. So I'll be up there for two weeks. It's me and one other actor playing all the roles in a show called popcorn falls.

Colin Hunter: 1:03:39

When does that happen? Doug, what's the day?

Doug Shapiro: 1:03:40

That's actually at the end of August? Wow. So I'll be home for my birthday on the anniversary of my husband's birthday. Yeah. Oh, brother. I go up on August 23. And I'm done. September 4, two weeks in out. Yeah, learn in a week and then perform for a week new soldier move. Remember what you've been through for one week?

Deborah Tranelli: 1:04:02

Okay. Oh, yeah, I'm excited. I'm doing my first live performance. I did a production of there's a new school, Bridges of Madison County, that I did two years ago. And we have a reunion outdoor concert version is June 25,26. So we're actually at a beautiful outdoor park that is an outdoor Theatre in Basking Ridge, New Jersey. It's called Pleasant Valley Park. That's where it is. So yeah, and almost everybody's going to be back together when the cast member unfortunately just lost our musical director who was with us, but everybody now.

Doug Shapiro: 1:04:40

going through my head like music directors going out.

Deborah Tranelli: 1:04:44

So it's amazing, you know, the thing just to know that, first of all, we loved each other and we have been at zoom calls together and having too many unions, but and very supportive of each other through all of this, but it's going to be wonderful. Even though it's going to be strange because we have to be spaced out, and there's much protocol, and we have to be tested and all the rest, just the idea of performing life again, this is so wonderful.

Colin Hunter: 1:05:14

So good to hear; I just wanted to end with, you know, I do this podcast to hear about stories, but I did this one from my soul just to get you to on and more out there sitting here. And it's just been an absolute joy to have you on and hopefully, in between promoting the show as Barnstone as New Jersey show and everything else. But in between this, there's some learning about how you've made and how all the actors around the world have made a massive difference to people to potential squared and other organizations now—so taking this on. So, Doug, and Deborah, you will always go together as Doug and Deborah. It will be a limited version of your name like

Doug Shapiro: 1:05:58

say one more thing that sort of like a little bit of a lesson. Yeah, But so the recent like how Deborah got into potential squared is the first gig I ever did in New York wasn't a musical Deborah, was it? That's what I got to know each other. We did another one afterward called Jungle green debutante, which tells you everything you need to know. But then if years later, we both end up on the same train to Princeton. I was coming down, I think, for reunions, because my husband's a Princeton grad. And also where I got married. And Deborah was visiting, it was

Deborah Tranelli: 1:06:29

by new beau. Now that appears together. But Joe, are you excuse me? Reunion weekend?

Doug Shapiro: 1:06:37

And you know, we're doing here, what are you doing here? And we talked about what we're doing. And I mentioned the business roleplay that was started with potential squared. And I'm Debra opened her mouth and said, that's something I'd be very interested in doing. Wow, I did no, no, that's, and so like, oh, so then I recommended her, and she's been working with you ever since. But it's the importance of saying, you know, I would like to do that. That's an opportunity I would like and

Deborah Tranelli: 1:07:02

and the other thing we talked about it was what don't you want to do anymore; you need to get on that treadmill of just working to work to prove yourself to just be out there. And sometimes, after you've been working a long time, you just really want to focus on certain things. And it's more important, oftentimes, to ask yourself, what don't you want to do? And focus on the things you truly want to do without anybody else influencing you, what do you really want to do,

Doug Shapiro: 1:07:32

working with potential squared has helped with all of that inside so much because, you know, we're learning from you and from all the amazing facilitators every day about, like, how to have that fierce conversation with yourself. And you know, and just discovering that there's another sort of acting that I love just as much if not more than the TV, the stage and everything, like who knew this was a thing, right? And it isn't just this, this love that is in my life now. Thanks. And thanks for hiring.

Deborah Tranelli: 1:08:02

And the fact that we both do love to be cheerleaders and coaches and mentors and watch other people succeed. There's no greater joy than then feeling like you've given someone the tools to succeed,

Doug Shapiro: 1:08:14

and you've combined all of it into one for us. The only thing we don't do is sing for you yet. Yes. So would you

Colin Hunter: 1:08:21

like to just sing us out with any song of your choice just and when we might cut this, but I knew

Doug Shapiro: 1:08:28

we were going directly throughout

Colin Hunter: 1:08:32

one little song, and people can either switch off now and go No. Or they can you had to do one song to sing is what would it be? How would you describe potential squared, squared in Assam, and your work on the actors? Put you on the spot.

Deborah Tranelli: 1:08:47

I know we really are in the spotlight,

Doug Shapiro: 1:08:49

you do something silly.

Deborah Tranelli: 1:08:52

That simply mystifies me.

Doug Shapiro: 1:09:01

And you're just too marvelous for words and Nasha.

Colin Hunter: 1:09:10

On that note, for all those listening or who turned off about two minutes ago, Thank you, Doug. And Deborah, that was brilliant. Appreciate you taking the time today?

Deborah Tranelli: 1:09:20

I love you. Thank you. Have a wonderful day.

Colin Hunter: 1:09:31

Well, folks, we could have recorded for two, three hours just talking about the stories. And there are some great opportunities when you listen to both of them, Doug and Deborah, to dig further into some of their preparation, some of the work that they do to get themselves in keratin. And as we go into this intentional, purposeful practice and the systems, there's a lot that actors in the world of acting can teach us. And it's not about the ability to adopt a persona you're not, but it's this what we talked about Confidence, conviction connection, that competence, physicality, vocality, the moveset, the mindset that you can hold and also just the connection. So, there is built-in improv, improvisational work as actors, to react to the audience to the music that's coming to them in any situation just shows the power that they have, and we can learn a lot from them. So delighted that we got the chance to listen to Doug and Deborah they are amazing.