Robert Wylie, Editor and Poet on Igniting Your Ideas

Colin Hunter: [07:23]

Hey folks. And welcome to another episode of the leadership tales podcast. My name is Colin hunter, and today I'm joined by Robert Wylie. So, what would I have done without Robert of these last two years of the pandemic? With the launch of the book? He was my editor. He was almost a spiritual soulmate. For me, over this period of time, his thinking style, his background, which you'll hear about today is such an inspiration, has been a rock for me. And in a while, I've been going through, so the launching the book be more wrong. And you'll hear today about his journey from Germany to France, learning and development, his diagnosis with Parkinson's and his challenges, to deal with that, that illness, and starting to think about his lifestyle, how he writes poetry, how he creates that. You'll also get some tips around the editing of the book and the book', which we'll talk about today. So I'm looking forward to introducing the amazing Robert Wylie to you all. And hopefully, you will find exactly what I got out of him as well. And inspiration to me.

Colin Hunter: [01:21]

I'm delighted just to have a conversation about the man that is Robert Wylie. Robert welcome.

Robert Wylie: [01:25]

Hello, thank you for the Sunshine glowing. And sometimes. I don't know quite how to talk.

Colin Hunter: [01:34]

Let's have a conversation, and then the people will understand a bit more about why, why we get on so well, and how it's helped the book, I think, is what I'd love to do today, Robert, but let's go into a bit of your background, cause you've got a fascinating background. I mean, you live in Leith near Edinburgh, but tell the folks a bit about your background, who you are.

Robert Wylie: [01:55]

I was from the west coast of Scotland initially, and I lived there until I was 18. I went to the University of Glasgow, where I studied French and German language and literature for two years before going abroad. I lived in Paris and then LA and then Cologne and Berlin, and I lived back for two years before coming down to Glasgow and finishing my degree. So I think of myself first and foremost as a linguist, but I discovered quite quickly that the academic world didn't pay fairly well, and I sold my souls amendments and joined the bank. I discovered that I couldn't add up, so I wasn't a very good banker. But I retrained as an occupational psychologist and stayed working within the corporate environment as a coach, drove mentor to heavily involved in succession planning and stuff like that. Then, when I gave up corporate life, I did some freelance work, critical reading, or editing, as you call it, for a couple of people. And then I went to Berlin to re-visit my German, and I went to Tucson, Arizona, and retrained as an engineer designer. And after that, I was diagnosed with Parkinson's, which was a bit of ambition for my career. But it's turned out very interestingly, and I do a lot of critical reading. I started to do some writing on my own, and my life took over quietly from the leash in quite an international way.

Colin Hunter [04:00]

I love it. I mean, Leith, for me, is famous. I mean, my daughter listed as the sunshine on Leith, the proclaimers, anybody who's got the 500 miles in their head, even if you're listening in the US or across everybody's or the proclaimers, but, but Leith's an amazing place. Isn't it? Tell the listeners a bit about Edinburgh, at least.

Robert Wylie: [04:22]

Technically since 1920, Leith has been part of Edinburgh but was born and brought there. I don't think I feel that. And the atmosphere only south maybe feels differently to me. It feels much more like Glasgow's west coast. I don't think I'm offending anyone by saying that as more for me. Then the best of Edinburgh. Everybody knows like the new town and the old town, and you never know quite what you're going to meet, see or hear when you're in the streets here. It's very stimulating.

Colin Hunter: [05:11]

I love that. And without risk alienating Glaswegians and Edinburgh folk, for those who don't know, Edinburgh is described as almost a posher side for those who don't know. If you understand the expression of Scotland and Glasgow has got that edge and that grit, that's the way you describe it is very; it's almost polar. In terms of your love for Admiral Glasgow. So you probably have alienated a few people, rub it, what the hell and tell me, cause that alienating people is not your way, but there is a. There's something about your background, the languages, the writing, psychology, the journey that you've been on that that makes it quite an eclectic mix. And for those who can't see you at the moment, there is also something about, you know, your art, the way that you're your apartment is decorated. You have so many influences in your life that come from different sides. Tell me a bit about the arts and the backgrounds that drive.

Robert Wylie: [06:15]

Oh, it's, it's all very personal in terms of pictures or sculpture or other artifacts, books. They're all stuff that has gone usually, very personal meaning for me, I don't buy through the gallery, I always just seen it and bought it or going straight to the artist to buy something which from an investment point of view isn't the best thing to do, but I do purchase finding best. For me, the quality is really important, vibrancy is really important, people either like it, or they don't is interesting on a zoom call. And many people position themselves neutrally against grey or white or even have a black door. Well, because they don't want people to be distracted behind them while I'm afraid. I acquire light behind me. And if you are just trying to blank could be a good thing too,

Colin Hunter: [07:38] because I'm looking, which I love. And when we got together before COVID, I came around to your place. My favorite bit is the bit behind you, which is for those listening; it's a fridge sculpture that is like a robot and has almost a light as its head, two little boots, and then a half-open fridge door. So if you can imagine a bright yellow, hopefully, yellow is the right color behind Robert, and Robert is dressed in the toss. So the Scottish is, is there, there's an amazing type, but your inspiration is also Vivienne Westwood, am I right is that? that's know

Robert Wylie: [07:38]

She is an inspiration, Yes. Yeah, but the fridge is by a friend of mine called Pauline Farrar, and the robot circus is a trading name. Most of the robots light p this one doesn't; they are all vintage. The greatest vintage tools have many cans, and everything is from the forties and fifties and recycled and upcycled, which has called us stereotypical. No. And it doesn't mind. No.

Colin Hunter: [08:56]

I mean, for me, that, that, in that, just that little bit of vocal piece that we'd done there, that says so much about why we get on so well, but also about you. But what you've done in there is you brought something to me, which I didn't have when I was writing about. I was writing the book, and I had these ideas that I wanted to put in place, and I needed to find somebody who could understand where I was going but brings such difference to what were we were doing. And, and I, I think I found that in you, and I definitely found that in you. What I've loved, though, is just the ability for you to bring some of the literary sides of your background, where you want to talk about in the second. You also brought the background from the bank and the occupational psychologist piece to the book. So you brought us and understanding, but you also bought a, a beautiful, challenging space to be for me in terms of challenging my thinking, never in a, I disagree, but more in a here's some other opportunities or other ways of looking at it. Tell me what it was like to go through that process. Well, working with me, we all know is a, is a pain, Robert, you know, what was it like to go through?

Robert Wylie: [10:12]

I never found a pain, but it's challenging because there are two things you do quite regularly. One of them is to pack so much into one sentence where there are probably four or five points to be killed, to be teased. These are not to be missed because you put them into one sentence. A reader will take away first, and they need to be teased, and Zack and the thing I found you do is almost the exact opposite. You make a leap and illusion between one idea. And the other that needs for a reader need to be the newer thinking stamps. Haven't been clearly spelled.

Colin Hunter: [11:07]

Most people who work with me, Robert, would love to have you around in the background actually to work out what the hell I was saying. So you hit the nail on the head. You were just about to say something that just those steps in my thinking of being really, really important, cause it's taken me three and a half years to write the book. And I've probably been clearer in the last 18 months to a year working with you than I was before. What. In an indulgent way. What inspired you about the content? Less about me and the way I was. Right. But what is 5g by the,

Robert Wylie: [11:40]

I think how accessible you make the things? My take on this particular world. Of Leadership development is that it seems to be a bit fragmented, and people aren't going into details about individual elements, and you bring back the kind of completeness of being a leader. It's not just about one aspect of leadership. It's about you getting your authentic self. And leading as a whole person, one of the chapters kicks off with a story about Manchester United and how they were fantastic. And then their leader moved on with an approved success and yeah, the struggles and the importance of that individual leader and everything that that emanates from them. You make it exciting and accessible, and you draw people in. I think that is a big thing to be able to do today to pick up the pieces that are lying abort, see it through your private lanes and make it available to me. And then even announced the suitcased pick up a book.

Colin Hunter: [13:15] I love that. And again, I want to come back to your story because Parkinson's, for me, is it's amazing what you do, but you have certain systems and habits in your life to help you with that, to cope with it. Tell us a bit about your cause. There's a hero's journey in there for me, what you've done. And I know you're a very humble man. Tell us about the journey and how you've taken on the bone since. And you live with it naturally in some ways with some of your video recording and some of the artwork that you've been doing, how you've been telling your story. Yeah

Robert Wylie: [13:48]

It's not been easy. The diagnosis took about 15 months to confirm, and I was confused by the banks that I had and always have had a central trauma. Hmm. So it took a while to sample it out and treat it too. And I had deep brain stimulation, which is invasive brain surgery, and I have a little control and two things in my head. Um, it triangulated about my imbalances. My voice is going. And the voice thing is particularly important to me. I used to sing, I used to do a lot in the Chines, and I can't do that anymore. So it was important to me to find another voice, another way of expressing what was going on within me. And I met this young filmmaker. Who's stopped me in the street. And then may I make you a portrait while about from being vain, finding that as a stubble, just the way he asked the question, may I make your portrait I thought it was an exciting politician science. I had guessed thingy. I never hear from them again. And sex phone saves. And he came out with this idea of doing a short, which is going to be screened as part of the mental health awareness festival and Scotland. And it's not fundamentally about that. Our other films are short films, being screened at the same time about people who live with disability or illness or people who care for people with disability. And that's one way I have expressed myself because my physicians are very keen that I behave in a sad way for my own benefit, of course. Well, I use a cane now. I won't use the articulate NHS stick because it's ugly and no men have, so it's going to. But that's bad from my back. So I want to say, well, we meet design, balancing, born another voice I've been writing some poetry. Another expression is I achieved the for the island prize. As a volunteer, the reader, it's been interesting, finding different ways. And especially during COVID, but I've been as good as gold straight to the home. I hate seeing every second, and by hating the inability just to go out and be social, then you find what you can. And it's amazing. My, you combine from.

Colin Hunter: [17:06] It's funny because the COVID piece that I've been desperate to get out and go out for you and I have a love of wine, so it'd be desperate to get up and share that. Go on and have a good meal, too, to get Miller out as well. And, uh, I'm sure that, that glass with you to celebrate what we've done and. We will; they will happen very, very surely. I want to take upon them; it's amazing that that is being shown next week as part of the mental health piece that's going on. So there was one thing when I was watching that, I can't remember the exact words, but it was the choice of almost, I used to worry about what people think, and now I don't, and there was a piece in there. Can you remember what it was? Cause it would really, I empathized with it, but it was a powerful statement.

Robert Wylie: [17:50] The only element that I can think of. Am I saying somewhere that I know and any problem being disbelieved,

Colin Hunter: [18:00] because it's that one.

Robert Wylie: [18:03] so obvious next step is where you can make us outside. And then just saying by lying all the time, I can't, I simply can't be both at the lying cause I forget what I've said. It's about. Identity and authenticity and having your identity as you have either created it or wanted to be known and undermined by something you have no control over. And how do you mean to be truthful to yourself now through that transformation? Because most people won't look at it. As it's now called Parkinson's disease or nothing. And I hate; I preferred to talk about just no because I'm in denial because it's transformation as I get old. And that is inevitable. That transformation could go one way. It could go around. I'm transformation related to my age, but I cannot avoid remaining true to myself. And then transfer me.

[00:19:20] Colin Hunter: love. I know I love the light, cause it, it has a resonance to me around the refresh, my direct, which is, you know, there's a difference between honesty and not lying, you know? So there's a difference between, you know, when I put honesty in my brand statement a while ago, and people said, well, you're not honest to me. You don't tell me exactly what you think of me all the time, but there is this piece about not lying. And if people asked you to, to give your truth, And your version of the truth to people. Yeah. And so if we go back to, from there to the book, because there is this truth-telling that you did with the book and worked in with the books, but there was also this hilarious balance and challenge we've had as we've gone through when we'd been doing the editing and structuring that in some ways we both be making it up as we go along. So this is my first book, and this, in theory, is the first time you'd be involved in this publishing route with me. Is that the case?

Robert Wylie: [02:16]

The first time I've seen it is the Beyond The—critical readings stage.

Colin Hunter: [20:23]

And for those who are out there recommend Robert completely credible reading stage for a book, title of a be more wrong, I'd say how many iterations and how many thoughts and how many pieces we've done and what have been your learnings out of there for you in terms of, for people listening, who want to write their own, but what have been your learning coaching me mentoring me, but also just in the process.

Robert Wylie: [20:50]

Is not to lose sight of what you want to achieve and not to be worried about gaps that you feel out there at present that you, you know, you know, there's something missing, but just to trust your own judgment or history to provide something that will bridge a gap and fill in those missing steps. And it's, I don't know if I should say this, but the barely The response you had from there.

Colin Hunter: [21:37]

Say it, because it was,

Robert Wylie: [21:39]

it was shockingly intense and wasn't at all encouraging, and I think anybody would have been; it would have been very easy to have just thrown in the towel. Because the feedback was not constructive. I don't know. Well, it could be regarded as constructive by saying, well, you need, as I thought, well, I found it Souls does showing, uh,

Colin Hunter: [22:11] maybe it's my Scottish Presbyterian background and me that thought, well, that's my, my six lashes for today. And yes. And must do better.

Robert Wylie: [22:20]

And be very useful bank and someone will kind.

Colin Hunter: [22:24]

Absolutely. And therefore we were going to; it's fascinating the gaps because you're a writer of poetry. And I was reading this piece from Mozhan Borrowell yesterday; I think like a rocket scientist. And he was sharing it as he's a blog about how he's writing his news. And he had this amazing piece for me that I'd never really thought about where he was. He was thinking about how he wrote the book, and he writes almost as if it's ten chapters. If I get what he was talking about yesterday, he was talking about writing some ideas down for the chapters and then leaving them and going away for a while for a month, two months, and then coming back fresh to the ideas. And it is fascinating because of the three and a half years. Almost gestation period for the book was a bit late going to Cape Cod writing for a while, leaving it for a while coming back to you, having a look at it during this. But, but that thinking process to take somebody from an initial idea to the end, how do you work yours? Because the poetry you and you use poetry as a way of helping Parkinson's because you were reading poetry, recording poetry for me in the background as a way of helping with the Parkinson's. But how did you write your poetry?

Robert Wylie: [23:41]

I need an idea, and it is hugely an Image. I'll see something that will trigger something else or hear something that will trigger something else. And then I fiddle, and then I sleep, and then family, they lockout a week now for the group, they're national federal. I love that. Sometimes it can be months, and I want. And then it's not deliberate that they I'm just going off the idea, and I know it's not complete. And then I'll come back. Something will trigger something else. I'll come back to. I love a day, and it will be clear what to do next. And that sounds terribly no, very embedded, and they think it is.

Colin Hunter: [24:38]

So Robin, nothing that I'm fascinated with on the poetry side, but also for the book, because. You talked about how I was able to bring these things together and almost the system side, but unless I've got a passion about it and unless I'm living it and having it as I would describe a pain point in it, it's very difficult for me to, to be passionate about something. So I'm definitely not passionate about Excel spreadsheets. I'm not passionate about doing financial calculations, as you know, with your numbers and going back to the bank piece. Thinking about the passion and how you distill that because you've got so many passions in your life, how would you, how would you recommend that people distill passions?

Robert Wylie:[25:21]

I think the first step is really to be aware of it. Some people haven't penned down, I could say from the outside, or they're really bad now about something, but it's not always clear for them. Sound. I think you have to do them fast from there and apply a degree of focus to expression,

Colin Hunter: [25:56]

focus, not sprinkles, focus, focus, not sprinkled, depending on where you want to go. Because some people focus too much and it becomes, it becomes bland. Whereas there's a piece for me about there's a degree of sprinkle to go get ideas, which is what you're talking about. And then. So it's divergent thinking; convergent thinking is a technical term and trust.

Robert Wylie: [26:15]

And it's, you might discard a good spring call today but don't ever be in because you never know when that better sprinkle could find its place, when you turn it on and keep a journal or a commonplace criminal, right. Things don't dress like them. And just me to the things. And I've got a book of tear sheets drawn from magazines, from design and every, so have now gone through and I'll think, oh yes, that sparks something. I can do something worth it. So never under the timing of your ideas, nor yours bringing the thoughts. They might not be just drained, but I don't bend them. Have a way of recording them or saving them. Make time just to flex food. I go through my car and play spooks when I've got a quiet moment. When I go through material sheets, if I've got a design issue that I'm trying to solve, the other ideas just don't in that respect; I'm a hoarder.

Colin Hunter: [ 27:35]

You've prompted a couple of thoughts that I think are, uh, are amazing. One is this fact that you can't own, you can't tickle yourself as an expression, so you can observe yourself a lot of the time and you, you don't know what, you're the thing in you. That could be your passion, your true north. I'm so many times a bit like me, with imposter syndrome. So many people I come across, they go, do you not realize what you're about? Sarah garden is one of my good friends and clients, She is in the book, and she is a classic where she had this amazing impact when she did an event with us, where the women in the room looked at her as a role model, and they wanted to talk to particularly the younger women when did come and talk to her afterward. And it's almost in her head, she thinks to why would somebody want to come and talk to me. So that observational piece from the outside is important. I wanted it to come off—one of your points. I want sun Costa coffee; Costa coffee is a chain store. It wouldn't be my choice now, friend gingers, sheriffs out the road, and gingers, which is a more niche, boutique coffee place. I loved my coffee when I was sat to next to a gentleman, and I'd been in this Costa, and he used to sit in the window to write my thoughts early morning, seven o'clock in the morning. I'd sit there probably seven to eight 30 drinking coffee. A big bucket of really strong coffee to give him, to get me going in the morning and write my ideas. I get my thinking going before I started to work, and there's this gentleman sitting next to me, and he would, he would come in, and every day he came in the same thing. He would ride his bike and pocket, lock it up, come in, get his coffee, and he'd sit. And he had a little moleskin book. And I was fascinated by what he was doing. One day, he reached his fingers into his cup, and he took out the grounds of the coffee from the cup, and he smudged it onto a page. And then he sat back and looked at the coffee grounds, smushed on a page. He took out a drawing pen, and he started to draw around the smell. That's fine. I had to be curious. I had to go in and say, excuse me, I hope you don't mind, but tell me what you were doing. And he said, I'm, I'm trying to get some creative ideas. So I got talking to him, and it turns out he was, he was competitive the scarf in terms of the drawings and Telegraph and the newspapers. So when there's was a Telegraph or cartoon that needed to be drawn, he was the alternative person who would draw the cartoons. He was now retired, but his inspiration for his new line of artwork was a smudge and a paper. And I described my life as a smudge. It's a massive smudge. And it's about that ability to take that smudge and crust. Some little bits of ideas and thoughts from that, but I just thought that was a brilliant way. And he's he showed me the design that happened about three weeks later, which was a metal sculpture that had been created from that one smudge. And I loved that. So that's what we're talking about. Isn't it?

Robert Wylie: [30:34]

Where the inspirations come from. And then you can start with, I mean, you said that you wrote this book partly as a way to. On the memories of your grandparents and your parents, I mean, that might have been your starting point. I don't know whether you think you've achieved that.

Colin Hunter: [30:59]

It's an entrance because I see my father passed away this year, which is a tough thing for me to go through, but what was the fascinating and the real revelation for me was. I never really knew my dad in his work. So being a doctor invented with another person, echo for baby's hearts to identify abnormalities in baby sites and did some of the funding work, but he was also a teacher, and it was only toward the end and his death that I got to talk to a few people like Jonathan, who was one of his, his students and worked with them. And when Jonathan wrote down what my dad was about and all the people, and I saw the articles that went in the newspapers and the Telegraph and the, you know, the Cambridge press, what was written down was me fundamentally. It was me, but I have never seen that because of my relationship. My father, my father, was coming home, tired, slightly grumpy, and I can associate with that kind of tied and slightly grumpy. I could see myself in there, but when they started to talk about what he did and the impact he had and the way he would call somebody in one of his students in to share something, he just learned, getting curious. That was fundamentally me, and I started to realize something different. So. It is wrong in his life. He was careful in terms of full of care about what he did on the development of the echo for baby's hearts and the treatment of his patients. And one of the things he always said, He wanted to be a professor, but by the end of his career, to be a professor, you needed to be selling your soul to the art of getting investments in to get research. And all he was interested in was the patient. And the clinician side of his work, and there's something in that for me. So, yes, I think I went away from that, but I came back to it. The death of my father realized that actually, I'd rather be a practice leader than a thought leader in what I do. And I think the book is written in a practice leader way, run the thought leader way. So it's an interesting question. Sorry, just a small digression, but that's where I've come to. Yeah.

Robert Wylie: [33:20]

I mean, No pushing their business. What is next in the store?

Colin Hunter: [33:30]

Well, it's interesting. Because you know, everybody says it's, it's a bit like that moment where you're writing a book, you say I'm never going to do this again. Yeah. It's so painful. It's no, and I, you know, I can't equate to, you know, when, when I talked to my wife and said another baby, no, I'm never doing another baby. And then suddenly a little baby around. She's like, okay. You know, so there's, there's something in there about never again, but actually, the more I've got into, the more is prompted a thought because a couple of thoughts of coming here that the playgrounds piece, which we talk about in the book, but people are starting to really question to how do you create playgrounds? What type of playgrounds? And therefore, there's a piece for me about playgrounds, the real interesting one for me. If you think about the life, I've had. And even just that story about my father for most people, that life is a degree of not quite survival, but a degree of getting a grip on things that are happening to them. And we created a model a while ago based on a, uh, uh, a psychology model, which is surviving. So once you've got survival, you get to stability, and then you get to thrive. Now we changed that slightly for organizational leadership. When we said it is about getting a grip on things, yeah. Then stability and thrive. So I do think there's a thing about this traction; the stability thrives model is the one for people to get because you and I know. That's to get a start as a leader; you need to focus. As we've talked about, you need to pick an area that you want to work on, and then you need to create a playground. Then you need to start thinking about what am I testing in that playground, getting attraction on that skill, that ability that's understanding. Then getting stability in that. And then moving on is a key part. So I think that the idea of a book and I'm probably giving my idea of the book away to somebody else and I'm probably going to write it, but that's the trust. That's where I think I'm going to go with the next. So, we'll start the journey Roberts and go for that. I'll want to come back to you because it's for people listening. There's a story of a man who's on the west coast of Scotland, Glasgow going off to Berlin languages, love of wine, passionate poetry, the passion of art, creative living in that space that has Parkinson's cheer now, What's next for you?

Robert Wylie: [36:06]

I take it a day at a time. I won't turn down an opportunity, and they can come from wherever. So the opportunity to make a documentary came out of nowhere. It was pure chance that I had gone to mills. From the day I did, because I had a big, I was performing in the 19-9-2019, and I'm fast. And I had a huge gap between shows. And middle, though. They've just been along the road. So I formed around the same time to eat myself free as our friend and we can't from what we've been doing we go off and eat and be doing. And she said that I know someone that you might like to speak to a Mance or die. I'm a great believer in chance, and the way friendships play a big part in that chance has very important. Because nothing happens in Egypt, I think it's yours. Yeah. You just, you don't know what's going to come back at you, so you do your best to make sure not gonna come back and bite you to come back and say hi. Hello. Good thing. We've met. Um, so, um, yeah, and that happens quite a lot. I'm quite optimistic.

Colin Hunter: [37:44]

No, it was great. And I, I think that's a great place for us to almost bring this to an end, because I'm a great believer in life that you create a space that people want to come in, or you create a space that people don't want to come in. And I think if summarize you and I and the relationship and the person I've experienced those Robert Wylie, that's a person who has this amazing creative flair, amazing ability to, to go down to the detail—plus keeping that passionate, creative space as well. For me, the future is another book. Robert, the future is other things as well, but I'm fascinated to understand, see what you're doing and work on that. Thank you very much for the conversation today, and I'm sure that the listeners, so we've got a huge amount of, if they want to find out more about you, where would they find that?

Robert Wylie: [38:37]

I suppose the best thing would be Instagram @rsmw002.

Colin Hunter: [38:46]

Yeah, let's get you back on a podcast in the near future. Once we got the next book up, and maybe we start at a book part of the podcast that we get people who understand what it's like to write a book and maybe get some ideas about how we could do it better ourselves. Yeah.

Robert Wylie: [39:02]

I think there's something about creativity that is often on a pedestal, and it comes in the most obvious shape or forms if you are open to it; Amanda's fine. Never Chuck, anything we, that you have been attracted to for whatever reason, hold on to because it will come into Solomon sometime.

Colin Hunter: [39:28]

Amazing, amazing way to learn, Robert, a joy to talk about as always. And thank you for being on the podcast.

Robert Wylie: [39:35]

Thank you.

Colin Hunter: [39:40]

Well, that was Robert, the amazing man, amazing background has stories about the videos created, but his life, his identity, I just love the way he thinks. When you get a message from Roberts, it always includes some deep thoughts and reading some work that he's doing or trying to work on his latest thinking is about identity and voice. And so therefore, he's doing some wider reading, but he comes from such a different place. To my thinking that I get inspired by looking at that and thinking about that. So delighted that you got the chance to listen to him and hear his story and how he has challenged himself with Parkinson's, uh, to find a new path, a new way, and used his art and this, his passion for a movie in Westwood and other areas of poetry, um, to really provide himself with inner energy, which, um, shines for all. So delighted you got that chance. I love to hear your feedback, love to welcome you to another episode of the leadership tales podcast. Very soon.